OBJ_EA1_SURFACE not showing or working

[Flysimware]

Version: 1.5.3.0

Severity: High & Blocker

Bug description:

I am not sure if this feature works yet. The SDK use to say coming soon. Now it has instructions but here is what happens when I try to use it. I have a 2024 native bi-plane that is finished and i can’t place it on the market until it has two wings. And it will be nice to create all the surfaces and turn off all legacy.

1. I turn off Design Activation for legacy wing.
2. I turn on the debug forces.
3. I create a wing surface and nothing shows and the aircraft can’t lift. (The obj_ea1_fuselage.n is working excellent)

P.S. This bi-plane does not have Vtail only a rudder. Will we be able to simulate this with just an animated rudder surface and have no Vtail? Once working will we see the new surfaces in debug animate/move to ensure we are modelling is correct. So far there are no sample in the updated DA62 SDK.

[Flysimware]

Update on my original post above. I was trying to add a surface as a wing. I now see that [OBJ_AIRGEO_WING.N] [OBJ_AIRGEO_HTAIL.N] [OBJ_AIRGEO_VTAIL.N] these do work for a native 2024. Only the [OBJ_AIRGEO_FUSELAGE.N] is for legacy MSFS2020 aircraft in the new 2024 sim.

So I now have a second wing. And I decided to use the method where we disable the default wing and created two OBJ_AIRGEO_WING entries for this bi-plane. This is working and just like the SDK states some of the settings from the disabled default wing are still active. @StuLes20 and I agreed this is a bit strange. Why not remove all of the default values and include them in the AIRGEO_FUSELAGE section. As of right now You can’t create different size wings. The only thing you can do is create the Length, location along with sweep, dihedral and incidence.

After more testing and collaborating with @StuLes20 we both agree there is some issues with [OBJ_EA1_SURFACE.N]

1. We can’t see any visual using the debug forces.
2. We are not sure this is working correctly and really need some samples.
3. And since some planes have a rudder and no Vtail (see a Nieuport 24) this OBJ_EA1_SURFACE using as a rudder should work without a Vtail. So I hope you can allow a OBJ_EA1_SURFACE to not be forced to include a Vtail or a Htail as a rudder or elevator would also act like a tail. This is something I hope will come in the near future!

[Flysimware]

Hi Asobo,

If you have time could you let me know if there will ever be a taper option added to the wing geometry?

[b1e1n7e]

Hey, can you give me some feedback on which msfs20 parameters are not disabled with the msfs24 fuselage. My understanding was that the new sections will use the old parameters from the airplane geometry section if I do not define certain aspects in the new sections. However if I define them my expectation would have been that the airplane geometry parameters will be replaced. I am going to set up my fuselage the next days and if I know the relevant parameters I can watch out for those specifically and confirm the issue from my side as well.

[Flysimware]

@b1e1n7e

Hey, can you give me some feedback on which msfs20 parameters are not disabled with the msfs24 fuselage.

Put a 0 to turn off legacy if you plan to add the new modern fuselage. This is in the same flight_model.cfg file. Not having the entry is default value of 1.

[DESIGN_ACTIVATION]
enable_aircraft_geometry_vtail = 1
enable_aircraft_geometry_htail = 1
enable_aircraft_geometry_fuselage = 0
enable_aircraft_geometry_wing = 1
enable_aircraft_geometry_gears = 1
enable_aircraft_geometry_exttank = 1
enable_aircraft_geometry_blades = 1

[FlyingRaccoon]

Hello @Flysimware

@Flysimware

Only the [OBJ_AIRGEO_FUSELAGE.N] is for MSFS2020.

None of the new geometry specification feature was available in MSFS 2020.

@Flysimware

So I now have a second wing. And I decided to use the method where we disable the default wing and created two AIRGEO_FUSELAGE entries for this bi-plane.

Why would you use fuselage objects instead of wing objects to describe your biplane geometry in a native 2024 aircraft?

Regards,
Sylvain

[Flysimware]

@FlyingRaccoon

None of the new geometry specification feature was available in MSFS 2020.

I was just stating this new geometry is for legacy and MSFS 2020 aircraft in the new 2024 sim according to what I read below on the SDK. Sorry for the confusion. Yes was never used for MSFS2020.

This section is used to define a fuselage object that uses the legacy Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 flight model fuselage defintion, which is essentially a box shaped object with an elongated tale section.

@FlyingRaccoon

Why would you use fuselage objects instead of wing objects to describe your biplane geometry in a native 2024 aircraft?

Typo. [OBJ_AIRGEO_WING.N]

I updated the original post to fix my typo and better describe the first confusion.

[FlyingRaccoon]

I’m still unclear about what you claim is not working exactly.

@Flysimware

As of right now You can’t create different size wings. The only thing you can do is create the location along with sweep, dihedral and incidence.

I created a wing with the new geometry specification, with parameters similar to the default Da62 config.
And I added a second vastly different wing above it.

Regarding the surface object, I was also able to create a surface object that is visible in the debug and moves like a rudder without having to define a vtail section

Here’s what the wing and surface sections of the CFG look like:

[DESIGN_ACTIVATION]
enable_aircraft_geometry_fuselage = 0
enable_aircraft_geometry_wing = 0

[OBJ_AIRGEO_WING.0]
name = bottom
position = -0,0.000009,11.007471
area = 184
span = 47.8
sweep = 1
incidence = 2
twist = -3
stallalpha = 16
stallalphaff = 18
dihedral = 7

[OBJ_AIRGEO_WING.1]
name = top
position = 0.000108,13.193674,11.007461
area = 250
span = 70
sweep = 20
incidence = 2
twist = -3
stallalpha = 16
stallalphaff = 18
dihedral = 7

[obj_ea1_surface.0]
name = rudder
position = -0.000005,8.634538,-2.400003
surface_angle = 0, 0, 90
element_number = 10,2,2 ;total number of sub surface elements composing our surface template
group = aircraft,extairframe,airframe,fuselage
size = 5,0.5,2
surface_cx = 1.15,0.04,1.15
surface_cx_tangent = 0.04,0.04,0.04
surface_cx_normal = 1.15,0.04,1.15
surface_cx_efficiency = 0.1,0.1,0.1
surface_cx_nscaler = 3,3,3
surface_cx_npower = 1.5,1.5,1.5
modifier.0 = rudder_angle
modifier_angle_scalar.0 = 0,-1,0

The syntax for the modifier is ambiguous in the documentation, I will have that reviewed.

Note: Keep in mind you can use the VFS Projector to check the content of unencrypted cfg files. You can check the flight_model.cfg of the C172 G1000 for example.

Regards,
Sylvain

[Flysimware]

@FlyingRaccoon

I created a wing with the new geometry specification, with parameters similar to the default Da62 config.
And I added a second vastly different wing above it

I updated the original post above as I forgot to include that the length was working. The issue I was stating about is having different wing area values. See here.

The point I made about just disabling all the [airplane geometry] values would make things less confusing. Because right now to me the surface area which is important to get the correct wing shape is done through the root chord + length + area. But what I see is the area is still being controlled from the [airplane geometry] value for both wings and in return I am forced to have the same size wing. The lower wing needs one third less lift.

@FlyingRaccoon

Regarding the surface object, I was also able to create a surface object that is visible in the debug and moves like a rudder without having to define a vtail section

Read below I think we are having a communication issue due to my poor English.

@FlyingRaccoon

Note: Keep in mind you can use the VFS Projector to check the content of unencrypted cfg files. You can check the flight_model.cfg of the C172 G1000 for example.

I was aware you can now download the default planes for help but without seeing the code it’s not much help. I was not aware of this as it’s been a long learning curve. And I have learned so much and feel I am almost caught up for 2024. This is a great tool if it is what I think your saying and I can visually see the cfg code.

[Flysimware]

Be great to add the default values in grey like you do in other places!

[Flysimware]

@FlyingRaccoon

Regarding the surface object, I was also able to create a surface object that is visible in the debug and moves like a rudder without having to define a vtail section

The point I was making is yes i could also create a rudder that is visible without the VTail but the aircraft will not hold yaw. I am trying your example and nothing is working. Seems I have no rudder control at all. And I for sure need the [OBJ_AIRGEO_VTAIL.N].

If i include a hidden V Tail then everything works. So, i hope this clears up the question I had as I was not calling this a bug but hoping one day to be able to have no V Tail required and match the real aircraft.

[FlyingRaccoon]

@Flysimware

I was aware you can now download the default planes for help but without seeing the code it’s not much help. I was not aware of this as it’s been a long learning curve. And I have learned so much and feel I am almost caught up for 2024. This is a great tool if it is what I think your saying and I can visually see the cfg code.

You can see the cfgs for unencrypted planes yes.
Behaviors are accessible as well but these are the compiled versions, so not the most readable.

Regarding the issue with wing area and lack of yaw control with surface element, I see what you mean now.
I will have this reviewed.

Regards,
Sylvain

[FlyingRaccoon]

For the rudder, we suggest you use the VTAIL section, and have its area match [AIRPLANE_GEOMETRY] rudder_area.
With such configuration, the whole surface is moving and producing lateral force (the movement won’t show up in the debug but the force will):

Regards,
Sylvain

[FlyingRaccoon]

@Flysimware

After more testing and collaborating with @StuLes20 we both agree there is some issues with [OBJ_EA1_SURFACE.N]

1. We can’t see any visual using the debug forces.

Please ensure that you have set aircraft in its group parameter.
That’s how the debug fetches the surfaces to display.

Regards,
Sylvain

[Flysimware]

@FlyingRaccoon

For the rudder, we suggest you use the VTAIL section, and have its area match [AIRPLANE_GEOMETRY] rudder_area.
With such configuration, the whole surface is moving and producing lateral force (the movement won’t show up in the debug but the force will):

I did something similar. I placed the Geo VTail in the same location as the rudder and matched the size. This makes the VTail act like the rudder when the rudder is not used. Then using the rudder adds the force and the VTail is basically behind the force. Works like a charm.

If you guys end up making an option to not include a VTail with a surface rudder, maybe have a checkbox that says no VTail and it just matches the rudder and moves with the rudder. There may even be cases where an aircraft has no HTail too.