I need a lifeline here, if anyone can throw me one.
For reference, this is for KBJC - Rocky Mountain Metropolitain Airport. It’s my home airport and I’m trying to improve on the algorithm-generated version. (Because that one is flattened and lots of things are wrong with it.) KBJC has two main, sloped runways and third, rarely used, intersecting runway. I want to use the proper elevations and slopes of the runways so it’s accurate, then build from there.
Here’s what I’ve tried:
Built-in runway terraforming, adding a profile, then setting the endpoints to be equal to the FAA diagram elevations. This results in a horrendous mess of concave and very bumpy runways.
Built-in runway terraforming, adding a profile, setting the endpoints as above, then using Add Point in the profile to pack as many in as possible and individually moving them around to try to flatten. This result is only marginally better, but still very lumpy and lots of creases.
Built-in runway terraform, add profile, set endpoints, then adding a runway-sized Rectangle, enabling terraforming, adding a profile, adding tons of points and adjusting all the points individually. This result isn’t any better than 2.
Built-in runway terraforming, profile, endpoints, then laying down individual non-overlapping Rectangles with terraforms and profiles, then fiddling constantly to try to get rid of all the creases. This is the best so far, but it’s ridiculous and still not completely flat.
This has been incredibly frustrating and disappointing! My expectation is that the proper way to do this is adding the runway, enabling terraforming, adding a profile to adjust the endpoints based on elevation, and bingo, I should have a perfectly flat runway from end-to-end. Instead, I’ve put hours in, only to get this:
I made sure that was off. In a couple of test projects, I turned it on and off to see if I could work with the result. The AI version is very flat and it loses the character of the airport, so I want to develop it without flattening. Cheers, though.
I used the airport diagram from skyvector and only entered 2 elevations of each end of the runway to replace the msfs one.
Airport diagram shows 116.2 heading but actually the base runway heading is 124.37 degrees. I guess this is due to mag var. I will give it another try tomorrow as it is a bit late for me to continue now.
Yes, those are some of the steps I took as well. If I load the sim with a blank Community folder and load in at Parking 94, it’s obvious the AI airport is flattened. Creating a new project and loading it removes the flatten and allows the underlying mesh to come through. There are a lot of temporary glitches like you showed until the rendering settles, at least for me. Once what I believe is the underlying DEM mesh shows, I can zip around the airport and see the legitimate terrain changes KBJC actually has. Honestly, you can follow the elevation change of runway 12L-30R at ground level and it becomes clear the underlying mesh isn’t far off the actual field contours. There are defects, for sure, but nothing drastic. The issues start when you add a runway. Suddenly, the runway is concave, unpredictable, and impossible to flatten relative to the surrounding mesh no matter what I try. Sometimes moving a profile point up or down results in creases appearing where there weren’t any before.
As for the heading, the magvar is about 8.1 east from what I recall so expecting 116 and getting 124 is about right.
One question: Have you deleted runways before you started adding a new one?
Here, I just added a polygon to the airport area (not sure if it helps but I always do it and I do not see too many mesh cracks with it.). I tried to level the camera height to show the elevation from 30R towards 12L (new runway with a straight elevated profile).
To test the scenery, copy the scenery folder in the packages folder to your Community and start your sim.
Hope it helps, I think you can continue from this point onwards.
I did delete the runways upon creating the project.
Your file does manage to create a smooth runway, but the elevations of 12L and 30R are reversed, so the slope is the wrong way. I swapped the points and, after the mesh rendering settled, the runway is still indeed flat, but so is the field around the runway. The terrain contours are lost.
After some experimentation with your project, I found this:
Runway terraform set to -1: runway is flat, but so is the vast majority of the surrounding terrain, as if the influence of the runway is vast.
Glad I could give you the hint to proceed in the right direction. I was not really paying attention to the elevations, I guess I selected the wrong side to start with (as usual for me with Asobo “heading” mentality).
May be you can flatten those cracks by placing a rectangle and adding heightmap to it.
Good luck.
I was hoping your suggestion would work, but there must be some defect in the terraforming system or the ground mesh rendering system.
I dropped a rectangle over a “dent”, set it to terraform with influence 120m and Priority of 50 to ensure it’s above the usual Priority 10 runways have. You can clearly see the line of floating vegetation (dark green) where some part of the engine understands the ground should be at that level. But you can also see the “dent” in the runway mesh is clearly visible.
A view from under a height map with a greatly exaggerated “hump” that shows floating vegetation, but a dented runway. The height map has absolutely zero effect on the shape of the runway.
I’ve come to the conclusion there is something in the scene that overrides rendering of the ground mesh with even higher priority than any object I can add to the scene. The fact the vegetation can be seen floating means the game understands it needs to draw the terrain there, but the fact the mesh is still getting deformed under it tells me there is something deeper going on.
Honestly, I doubt any kind of bug report on this is going to get attention with the impending launch of FS2024. I’m just going to shelve this and hope ground rendering in 2024 is better. Maybe I’ll tackle building KBJC in November. I’ve put too much time in for no result.
additionally, this tutorial has worked for me, although I had to manally sample the points since the Nool Toolkit is not currently available (I messaged to try and buy a license)
That is a tremendously helpful find, TrespassVR! That is the exact issue I have. Turning off photogrammetry indeed “fixes” the problem. Terrain suddenly responds to terraforming as expected. Of course, as pointed out in that thread, that’s not exactly a solution because it won’t work on Xbox and it requires PC users to change a very significant setting. Honestly unacceptable.
I looked at MSFS Toolkit, but 189 euros a year isn’t an option, and it sounds like you tried to get a license and couldn’t anyway. I did find that tutorial on my own before I posted this thread, but couldn’t try it out for my target airport.
Can you point me to info on how you did the “manually sample the points” step? I did some looking into how to get DEM data into MSFS but 1) it’s very technical and 2) it sounds like some of the techniques only work in offline mode. Also, does the solution you found allow you to get smooth runways and accurate surrounding terrain detail without wiping out photogrammetry?
so this might be the easiest way to sample elevations at points… this is the middle of your runway intersection linked below:
Please note I have not checked accuracy of this data on this website. I did my sampling in QGIS, using a DEM from TNM Download v2 and then using the little “Identify features” tool which basically is the same action as the above website.
I don’t have a solution when photogrammetry is involved. Unfortunately, I’m in the same boat. Feel free to also comment on the thread I linked and maybe they will provide a way to truly exclude photogrammetry.
That website is excellent, thanks very much. I added a comment to the other thread, as well.
So, you’re saying you haven’t found a solution to this issue without turning off photogrammetry? It sounds like we are both in the position of developing the best we can and hoping 2024 solves this problem.
That’s correct. Unfortunately, there’s no good way to use terraforming tools with Photogrammetry turned on. You’ll end up with lumpiness and floating grass. I really hope they’ve fixed this in 2024, or at least given us a way to locally turn off photogrametry in a small area. Right now, it’s all or nothing. Yes, you can locally delete terraforming objects and buildings and trees, but you cannot locally delete or affect the underlying photogrammetry terrain, nor can you use the terraforming tools on photogrammetry terrain. I posted the same issue here a year ago.
