MFS20 aircraft variants don't show up as intended

Version: 1.1.9.0

Frequency: Consistently

Severity: Low

Marketplace package name: N/A

Context: MFS20 aircraft in the aircraft selection menu.

Similar MSFS 2020 issue: No

Bug description: MFS24 aircraft.cfg tags are not visualized and variant selection is confusing a a result.

Repro steps:

  1. Install H145 & Action Pack. There are 8 total variants with some 40 liveries.
  2. Load MFS20 and MFS24 and look at the aircraft selection.

Expected: MFS24 variant selection mentions the variant in the list so you can quickly scroll and choose.
Actual: MFS24 variant selection picks a random livery and ignores the ui_type which is the variant name. This hides the variant name and makes it a lot less clear what the items in the list are referring to. Selecting the variant will show its name up top though.

MFS20:

Each Variant is:
Airbus Helicopters (ui_manufacturer)
H145 VariantNameHere (ui_type)

MFS24:

Now, unexpectedly, only ui_variation is displayed. But MFS20 pretty much forced a way of setting up the text, and now it is confusing as it relies on every livery name reproducing other text (which itself is a problem because nothing can be that long).

It all still functions, but users are asking where the variants are, and it just is confusing. At least picking the first livery would have helped so it would be predictableā€“right now itā€™s picking a random livery under each variant as the thumbnail.

Basically none of what I carefully set up in MFS20 comes over well at all, which seems inappropriate since every dev did the same work to show off the aircraft nicely in the list.

So to recap, the bugs seem to be:

  1. ui_variation is used instead of ui_type.
  2. Livery sort order isnā€™t the same as MFS20, and as such the wrong ā€˜topā€™ livery is displayed.

Attachments:
Private attachments:

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It turns out this is because the library is now sorted by ui_createdby and icao_model. Everything we knew about sorting aircraft in the library is out the window now. It seems like now weā€™re going to have to remember what plane, and livery, we want to use based on who the author of the simulation was rather than what the aircraft is or what itā€™s mission/typerole is or who manufactured the aircraft. Liveries by other authors will show up as different planes, which will cause an explosion of choices, all mis-sorted. Especially since hardly anybody chose the correct icao_model in the past, and that field was filled in however the author wanted, if they filled it in at all.

Iā€™ve spent the last decades editing the aircraft.cfg of every aircraft Iā€™ve ever downloaded, probably over a thousand that Iā€™ve installed across multiple FS versions, so I could carefully organize my library by aircraft manufacturer and type; and apparently thatā€™s no longer going to be possible. My dream of multiple typerole choices for planes, just as we have multiple parking types, to help filter by typerole as well so I can choose by the mission I want to fly today, ignored.

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@davux3,

I agree that it doesnā€™t look good - Iā€™ll talk to the UI Team to see what can be done.
I believe we can do something about the text shown on this page - if only for 2020 aircraft - but I have my doubts regarding the sort order (not from a technical point of view but rather from a design point of view).
Iā€™ll keep you posted.

Best regards,

Eric / Asobo

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@FlyingsCool,

I am not too sure how the grouping of the new aircraft selector can lead to ā€œan explosion of choicesā€ when I look at the MSFS 2020 screenshot above where the H145 can be seen 8 times - I am no designer, but as a player it makes more sense to me that there is one H145 main tile and that I can select one of its variants through the Configure menu.

As for grouping per ICAO Model & Developer, we thought that devs wouldnā€™t be very happy to be mixed & matched within a single ICAO Model tile - happy to hear those of you who would prefer this but I suspect that wonā€™t be the majority. And yes if you have 3 or 4 different 737 or A320 youā€™ll have as many tiles in the selector - but weā€™ll still be far from the ā€œexplosion of choicesā€ that can be seen in 2020 when an aircraft includes lots of variants.

Best regards,

Eric / Asobo

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So, the issue Iā€™m speaking of will occur, as has been noted, when people start including liveries for planes that are created by other authors, who will put their name in the ui_createdby, and a new plane will be created because itā€™s a different author, even though itā€™s expected that livery is a variant of an existing plane. I download a lot of liveries. Of course the workaround is to force all liveries to have the ui_createdby be the original author, but, then, where does the credit for the livery go? Yes, it can go in the manifest, but, traditionally it goes in ui_createdby. So, there is that, at least credit can be where credit is due in the My Library listing, as long as it lists the manifest info.

Also, very few of the planes I installed in 2020 had the correct icao_model. So thereā€™s going to be a very varied experience of what planes are called. Granted, in my ā€œcorrectingā€ the icao_model callout in the aircraft I installed, I realize I likely am breaking model matching. But, I figure that will correct itself in the future, especially as AI aircraft are created and used for model matching. Not to mention even the icao_model field is pretty varied in its layout and structure. So, my OCD is freaking out because I like consistency. Iā€™ve spent my whole life learning about which plane was which by memorizing the manufacturer and type, and now thatā€™s pretty much gone away, and Iā€™m going to think of the sim planes by their authors instead, since itā€™s only the icao_model, which isnā€™t very consistent in how it names planes. And, not to mention, not all planes have an official icao_model.

Weā€™ll see. I understand the issue with mixing planes by different vendors, as I currently have P-40ā€™s from 3 different authors, P-40B by Big Radials, P-40F by Inibuilds, and P-40N by Flight Replicas, but, theyā€™re automatically separated because they are different ui_types, and itā€™s rare I buy the same model of aircraft by different vendors. Of course that falls apart with the P-51D, where I have the Aeroplane Heaven P-51D and the Reno P-51ā€™s. But that was handled because the Reno planes were all separate anyway by owner, and some by ui_type. Texans will be a big problem, too, as I will eventually own multiple versions of that when it comes out.

What I liked about using ui_manufacturer, ui_type, ui_variation, and ui_typerole was it allowed me to sort my library the way I wanted, without affecting model matching (which I understand uses the icao_model and other fields). Now Iā€™m stuck with the icao designation

Another point is, I used to be able to order my variants and put my favorites at the front of the list of variations. Now weā€™ve lost that because you, correctly by programming convention I do understand btw, decided to no longer honor the [flightsim.xxx] sorting. But, that was a nice little back door I would use to make sure my favorite variant(s) was always first for all planes.

Anyway, it always annoyed me that authors would take credit for being the manufacturer of a plane, and now thatā€™s coded into the sim, and Iā€™m going to have to deal with finding the plane I want in a very disorganized fashion from the way I think about planes.

Iā€™m sure youā€™re aware of the issue that the sim is mixing planes into other planes, especially the Carenado planes, likely because they didnā€™t originally include the icao_model in their aircraft.cfg correctly? I donā€™t know.

As you noted, these are all my own opinions. I admit I freaked out when I saw all these changes and understood the ramifications of the choices. Maybe it wonā€™t be as bad as Iā€™m thinking. But, my experience with maintaining aircraft.cfgā€™s to this point has me very scared of what itā€™s going to be like. Iā€™m still waiting for my Aerosoft Limited Collection edition I ordered in September. So, when I finally get to install the sim, Iā€™ll let you know more about how I feel about this when I use the sim a bit and get a handle on how Iā€™m going to keep my library organized in a fashion that makes sense to me. In the meatime, carry on. Itā€™s just me ranting. Sorry itā€™s so long, thereā€™s a lot to unpack here and a lot of reasons this stuff is important to me. This is just one small issue. Itā€™s a variety of issues.

EDIT: Please note, Iā€™m basing this all on conjecture based on the fact you said itā€™s using ONLY icao_model and ui_createdby to do sorting. From what Iā€™ve seen the interface is ignoring sorting by ui_manufacturer, ui_type, ui_variant (except within a particular ui_createdby and icao_model, when those are properly filled in, which in the past has not always been the case), as well as you did not mention that it would be sorting on icao_manufacturer or icao_typedesignator. Also please note that we think of planes colloquially as well. icao_manufacturer=BEECH, is well, Iā€™d prefer Beechcraft. So, in the past using ui_manufacturer as the sort key allowed me to control how to name it, and leave icao_manufacturer what itā€™s supposed to be for your programming purposes.

And, note, I also realize that by my renaming planes on how theyā€™re sorted, it might screw up how those planes are used in careers and missions. Point there being, it would be really great if the SDK showed exactly how all the fields are being used everywhere. For instance, whatā€™s the performance= field used for?

When all is said and done, I never in a million years ever grouped the planes in my sim by who wrote them. Itā€™s good information, and I appreciate their effort, but, I never considered it as a UI grouping feature.

Iā€™m a livery and scenery creator by the way, from way back.

@EPellissier Unfortunately @FlyingsCool is correct about this ā€œexplosionā€ thing.

I installed a couple third-party liveries from FlightSim.to and some of them sort as aircraft variants.

This is pretty rough, but it still works and only applies to some of them.

In this case ui_type="H145" was used by the third party, which doesnā€™t match what was used in the liveries with the base pack.

I think the only way reliable way to tie a livery to one of my variants is to look at base_container, since thatā€™s the ultimate way to tie a livery to a variant.

List:


After selection:

Note how it doesnā€™t say Medical variant anymore, just whatever the livery dev put in.

Here is MFS20, it also promote a third party livery to the top and I never liked that but thatā€™s how it is.


And then under medical variant there is all the liveries by base_container:

Reorganize them instead of trying to port them.

H145 Civilian

  • Standard
  • Cargo
  • Luxury

H145 Utility

  • HEMS
  • SAR
  • Fire
  • Offshore

H145 Military

  • Standard
  • Cargo
  • Coast Guard

Iā€™m sorry, who are you talking to, and what are you trying to say?
Is this comment for Eric or davux3?

davux3 installed a couple of 3rd party liveries, and they created new aircraft. How does your suggestion help that?

What do you mean ā€œReorganize themā€?

I really donā€™t know what you mean or who youā€™re talking to.

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Davux. And 3rd party liveries are irrelevant. Skinners will update their liveries accordingly.

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So, I finally got FS2024 installed. To my point, how are people supposed to realize that the Carenado Mooney is a variant of the Carenado C-170B?

Why do I have to know that I have to scroll to Flight Replicas to find a Curtiss P-40N?

Yes, thankfully, if I know what plane I want to fly, Iā€™m on PC, so I can type in the search field easily, but, thatā€™s not so easy on Xbox or in VR. Most of the time however, I like to scroll through my list, maybe with it filtered by a typerole. This is what Iā€™d like to do.

Unfortunately, if I type Mooney, it doesnā€™t come up because itā€™s a variant and not a tile.

Is the Marketplace induction team going to create a tool to make sure all icao_model fields are filled and correctly match the plane they are representing? The icao_model field does not include the manufacturer in it. I think youā€™ll find thatā€™s how people like to have their aircraft organized if you take a poll. Iā€™ve had several like responses to my posts in the forums.

Iā€™ll admit I donā€™t understand why many of the aircraft are sorted by Manufacturer, how is that happening if itā€™s sorting by icao_model?

Please know that I know you have much more pressing things to worry about at the moment, but, I hope that someday youā€™ll consider expanding the way the library is organized. One person responded that they have 3.5TB of liveries they manage.

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I agree that we should look at the base_container to group the additional liveries under the same tile as the main aircraft - but we then need to add the creator somewhere too to give them credit for those liveries. I will discuss this with the UI team,

Best regards,

Eric / Asobo

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Weā€™re still relying on MFS20 compatibility mode. Iā€™m not porting yet, this is just running as it did on MFS20. We sold the variants themselves so I donā€™t have the opportunity to reorganize the variants/packs right now.

Maybe so, but thatā€™s for Asobo to decide. I wanted to follow-up with the behaviors. It seems to me the sim can be adjusted a bit, but again thatā€™s up to Asobo. I think the main reason people are so confused is because all their third party liveries are ā€œpollutingā€ the list, but also the main variants are now unclear.

The most important thing is that it all functions (which it does), and hence why I marked the bug as low severity.

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Livery creators just need to understand how their changes affect the aircraft selection screen. Most would want their livery grouped with the source aircraft rather than appearing as a separate aircraft. But in spite of the enormous quantity of addon liveries available, no guide was developed for livery creators. So we are just stumbling around in the dark.

I have developed a guide for converting liveries to 2024. The guide is currently limited to 2020 legacy aircraft, as 2024 native aircraft are much more complex. Its contents is just a compilation of all the information I have stumbled across when adapting my 2020 liveries for 2024.

This is an extract from the guide about variants and liveries.

image

All I have done with all my liveries is reset the ui_createdby value to the same as the default, and they all group with the source aircraft. As the UI variation appears on both the variant and livery tab, it just needs to add some extra detail to be added to explain what is being selected.

This one of my H160 liveries with multiple entries in the aircraft.cfg. The other entry you see on the screen is a single livery which has the same value appearing on the variant and livery screen.

Variant tab - You can see MSFS has picked the red liveryā€™s thumbnail and description to place on the variant tab.

On the liveries tab you see all 3 colour variations as you would expect.

Livery creators just need to communicate to end users that they only need to look on the livery tab, when an aircraft has multiple variations. End users will get used this very quickly, once they understand the process. This is the comment I added to the H160 livery upload page to explain how to select the different colours on this particular livery.

The reality is that livery creators need to work with what is available in 2024.

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Low, but impact on users is a very poor experience.

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Why canā€™t I vote for this one?

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This isnā€™t just an FS20 vs FS24 issue either.
Just look at the disaster of how badly organised the FS24 specific aircraft are. We have variants appearing as unique aircraft. We have liveries appearing as unique aircraft. We have unique aircraft appearing as variants of unrelated other aircraft.
Itā€™s a mess.

But one thing I really donā€™t getā€¦ is why even bother having a variant and a livery tab if thereā€™s no way to possibly configure them as seperate details for an aircraft?

The way itā€™s meant to be configured is as I describe above, aircraft are grouped by icao_model and ui_createdby. This change was likely made to better support integrating Marketplace purchases directly into the library, with the assumption that authors had filled in all these fields appropriately. Designing aircraft modularly was also a consideration in this choice.

The variant is created by ui_type, which historically has been haphazardly used, and livery by ui_variation.

The problems weā€™re seeing is that aircraft.cfgā€™s were basically an afterthought in the past, and up to users to edit them if they saw fit to organize the library and make the data correct. Now itā€™s going to be a requirement that the Marketplace team check every aircraft.cfg for completeness and consistency. And rules for that consistency are going to need to be made and enforced.

Youā€™re right, I donā€™t think consideration for liveries was made or perhaps the consequences understood, that customers often have hundreds of liveries, and people and companies other than the author of the plane created liveries; or perhaps at some point they were going to say that ui_createdby should always be the author of the vehicle and not the author of the livery (which begs the question, why not use the base model as the aggregating feature and not ui_createdby and avoid this issue, and, let the author of the package fill in the field as they see fit?). Or maybe they thought it wouldnā€™t be so bad having a list of 4simmers planes that are the same as the base plane?? I donā€™t know.

In summary, the ability to organize is thereā€¦ the basic problem weā€™re running into at the moment is that authors never properly filled out their aircraft.cfgā€™s, and they were haphazardly created to boot, and then on top of that, theyā€™re encrypted and streamed, so users canā€™t edit them either. And then on top of that, the rules for consistent library organization have not been communicated and the Marketplace team is inducting aircraft without concern for library organization / aircraft.cfg completeness. Some decisions have to be made.

Or not.

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Iā€™m the end-user that FlyingsCool referenced with the 3.5+ TB 2020 skin library. Some 23,000+ skins where I have gone in a retaken the thumbnail because those are a mess too. Even the default ones are all over the place and not useful for showing what livery you are looking at. And to FlyingsCoolā€™s point, this was only achievable using PowerShell to rip/replace the downloaded skinā€™s cfg files included in the downloads, replacing them with the correct/required parameters because those cfgs were either setup wrong or missing required parameters to sort properly in the sim and a myriad of other problems caused by their lack of understanding of the SDK. Thatā€™s never going to change.

The way 2020 worked was sorted on base_container. Thatā€™s critical. The second thing as far as sorting liveries in the UI menu system was, folder naming convention for the skin itself. My scripts would append a ā€œ00_ā€ prefix to the folder to move them to the front of the menu so that the funky default skins would load to the back of the menu where I didnā€™t have to scroll through them to get to my custom liveries. Then, 2020 would continue the sort based on the remaining folder name. So, for all my Southwest Airlines 737 skins, as an example, would be grouped together in the UI thumbnail menu where I new all I had to do was scroll to the ā€œSā€ in the menu and theyā€™d all be there next to each other. It was awesome.! This has been destroyed in 2024. And to be blunt, MUST be resolved.

Collecting realistic skins for my purchases (I probably have over 5k in aircraft purchases, I donā€™t even want to know) is extremely important. With no way to effectively manage my library in any meaningful way in 2024, I can emphatically state, I will shelve the sim and not buy a thing. Thatā€™s like buying expensive tools and putting them in your garage knowing full well youā€™ll not be able to find them when you need them. Why buy the tool if you know that is going to be the end result? There is no way Iā€™m going to scroll through the livery thumbnails when they should be presented and sorted in the following way:

  1. Base_Container
  2. Manufacturer (Cessna, Beechcraft, Piper, etc. Even when the dev used their own name here in the 2020 UI, e.g., Carenado, when I added my third-party skins and my script would inject ā€œCessnaā€ in this field of the aircraft.cfg file, the Carenedo planes would get sorted for the aircraft and show up in the UI as ā€œCessna.ā€ This was important to me as well. It was confusing in 2020 to try and find aircraft based on who developed them. Itā€™s silly to do that. This is a flight/aircraft simulator, not a developer simulator. Just my take on it. Not trying to be rude.
  3. Variant (Float, Skis, Tundra, Medical, etc.)
  4. Skin (To be sorted by folder name)

This is rudimentary stuff. I can tell you this, there WILL be an explosion of aircraft variants in the UI because hardly anyone, devs or hobbyist, setup their config files properly, hence my scripting in PS to solve the issues created by this expected inconsistency and thus guaranteeing my library functions all the time for every single skin. And it does, all 3.5 TB of them.

The problem with the 2024 menu as it is right now, itā€™s so messed up, livery creators are going to give up and simply not deal with it. And for me, if I canā€™t logically manage my inventory, whatā€™s the point in loading the sim. Asobo canā€™t expect people to jump through hoops like this if they are to commit their free time to enhancing the sim and user experience for 2024 users. It is completely unnecessary.

Now Iā€™ve mentioned this in the other threads in the forum. Why not get rid of the individual livery thumbnail and leverage the 3D model being displayed in the UI? Set that model to be rotatable, put a left and right arrow on either side of the 3D model to scroll to the next livery so the user can inspect it if they want. Then, add a text drop-down list based on the aircraft.cfg ā€œTitle =ā€ entry and the user can use to select a skin without having to scroll through the 3D models and thumbnails. This method is used in DCS World, and it is very effective. This would solve the horrendous thumbnail issues in the UI as well as everyone takes different thumbnails resulting in massive inconsistencies in the sim UI when selecting aircraft liveries in the UI. Beyond that, the new PNG format is quite expensive from a file size streaming perspective, if following the SDK, my CowanSim thumbnails are 152 MB for the default skins I have loaded thus far. Iā€™m probably looking at another 700 MB once the freeware skins are put in the community folder. The sim has to crawl that. So, we go from saving data by streaming to using it up for unneeded livery thumbnails that will hinder sim loading performance anyway.

I think doing this would be a win-win-win. Win for Asobo, Win for the dev and win for the end user. Itā€™ll get rid of the jumbled mess of thumbnails. They are simply not needed other than the primary thumbnail for the aircraft and the variant thumbnails. Livery thumbnails should go the way of the Dodo, IMO.

I love that idea of doing away with the thumbnails and having the 3d Model display instead. I doubt itā€™ll happen - but love the idea.

Seriously, and Iā€™m not professing to be a full-blown developer, but Iā€™ve spent the last 4 years dealing with the myriads of differences across aircraft.cfg, panel.cfg, sound.cfg, model.cfg, and any other file that resulted in an add-on not nesting in the sim UI properly, across both default, payware, and freeware aircraft to know that, while the SDK is a masterpiece of documentation in my eyes, itā€™s simply never going to be followed by the community at large. Some of that will be because of lack of understanding, some of it will be the entries are thought not to be required and some of it is pure laziness in general. As a result, Iā€™ve had to customize my PowerShell scripts for each aircraft I own in 2020. And some of them took days to figure out in scripting to straighten them out because all of them are setup slightly differently across their respective cfg files in most cases. That was hard enough.

As this sim becomes more complex, the sprawl of requirements for proper configuration of assets in the sim is becoming overly complex. An appropriate action is to cull those things that are not needed. Thumbnails fall square in the middle of that assessment. They are simply not needed at the level they are being used and are not useful, but more a hindrance. Heck, the 2020 default aircraft in 2024 donā€™t even have the thumbnails mentioned in the 2024 SDK. The devs (Carenado as an example) just donā€™t want to deal with it and didnā€™t, period! Get rid of them. That way MS doesnā€™t have to stream them, devs donā€™t have to take them and include them other that one for each model and one for each variant, which should be a screenshot of that variant feature like an interior shot of the cargo compartment, or the sling on a cargo helicopter, whatever. Those donā€™t need continuity between add-ons. For all the others there is no use in requiring them anyway as people/devs all do them differently causing a mess of a thumbnails in the UI. Some are in-sim screenshots, some are at odd angles, some zoomed in more than others. Some different backgrounds, some just the name of the aircraft and not even a proper image of the aircraft. Some are simply wrong and donā€™t represent the actual skin at all. Itā€™s a tremendous effort to straighten them all out to have a library setup like mine. Ditching them would eliminate the bandwidth and cost of streaming them.

PNG files are MUCH bigger than the old JPG and you need many of them now for each skin. Thatā€™s not scalable in the big picture of things when we speak from an overall storage cost perspective both in streaming and local storage. It will cause the bloat MS/Asobo wanted to get rid of in 2024. Beyond that, the sim has to crawl through them and add them, thus eventually, slowing down sim loading times. Exactly what 2024 was to help resolve. Whatā€™s the point? We donā€™t need them. Let the 3D model in the UI do that heavy lifting now. Itā€™s perfect and just needs to be implemented. It lightens the sim add-ons and Iā€™ll bet the interface would gain a slight performance benefit to boot. Snappy, snappy, snappy without all the fuss.

Purely from a user perspective, I would be willing to bet there is no one on the planet that has a library of aircraft/skins like I do. I donā€™t share them (wish I could) due to EULA issues, obviously, but I would guarantee people wish they could have my library the way it is organized. All thanks to PowerShell and a tremendous amount of will and effort on my part. I just donā€™t see that being possible in the current state of the 2024 UI and the SDK image requirements. We have to be able to sort our inventory. Somehow, Asobo lost sight of that or was not aware of it. And as mentioned, Iā€™m not what you would call a full-blown developer, but engaging in the MSFS hobby at the level I have to get what I want out of the sim kind of put me there from a file/asset management perspective. I appreciate the ability to put this out there so that MS/Asobo devs can get a street level view of how the product is really used in many cases. You canā€™t fix it if you canā€™t see it is my motto in the IT world.

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