Are you still motivated to use WorldHub?

I asked to be part of WorldHub in the hopes to fix some small airports in my area in the US. I am a practicing architect, so updating site plans from various sources is something I have very real experience with. I started with the non-towered airport I fly out of because I’m most familiar with it. In MSFS there are all sorts of problems as it is depicted currently. I found that I could partially fix some like taxiway edge lights running across aprons.

But there are a bunch of major things that can’t be fixed - buildings, the fuel area, the beacon that doesn’t exist (must be submitted as a request) and on and on. I didn’t expect to have the full suite of tools you’d find in a civil or architectural CAD system for sitework and similar, but the WorldHub approach is difficult to use with any precision. I’m just roughly clicking away forming crude polygons over fuzzy aerial photos to approximate taxiways and parking pads. This isn’t ideal, but it’s also possibly acceptable if there weren’t other more serious problems/limitations.

Mostly, it’s the extreme limitations such as not being able to correct major problems with the buildings shown at airports. I understand why they wouldn’t allow for importing custom 3d assets, but just letting us pick from a selection of pre-made options, ideally with the ability to customize dimensions (even just scale X/Y/Z) to resemble the actual buildings would be a huge improvement.

I’d prefer that removing the non-existent beacon was part of submitting the update not a separate process. It has been weeks since I tried (and ended up not submitting the updates) so I don’t recall exactly, but the airport has a fairly common fuel setup for US small airports, but as I recall, I couldn’t come anywhere near approximating it in WorldHub (maybe you can’t change the fuel set up? I’d have to re-load it and dig back in.)

If this is an alpha, fine, Asobo et al can see how the very limited initial run has gone and should roll out improvements/expansions. But they need to empower us to make more extensive corrections for this system to be useful or meaningful.

One idea: Explain explicitly that I only get access to the current minimal options as a first round. I submit the changes, and then if they approve those changes, they give me access to more extensive options like correcting the buildings. If I knew that I could prove my way to really being able to fix the overall problems with these small airports, I’d be willing to pursue that route. But with the dead end that I could fix some ground lighting, some parking asphalt edges and maybe a few other things, but the end result will still be a goofy mess, I’m not motivated to do much.

In contrast, while I know that they can’t let users have total control for a bunch of reasons (such as users uploading IP encumbered assets, pranks/griefing, etc.) in order for me to engage and provide for free what I would charge a client thousands of dollars to do IRL, they need to give us the tools to actually create a satisfying, admittedly imperfect. end result for the effort we put in.

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When the aerial is bad, I often use coordinates directly from the Bing Maps aerial to form my vertices. It is painstakingly slow, but accurate. And so far, none of my submissions have been rejected for doing this. Unfortunately, there are some circumstances where the Bing aerial also sucks. In those cases, I have taken to doing some crazy things to get my airports accurate. So far, they haven’t been rejected, but they always make me nervous.

Another reason is that, the way MSFS is architected, any custom assets would end up being stored locally. So if people started uploading custom assets everywhere, the base installation would end up being huge.

Hopefully 2024 will not be that way, but even if it gets fixed in 2024, the world for 2020 will still be there.

 

But I think that earning the trust of the World Hub team and unlocking certain editing capabilities would be great.

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Agree with all. However, given the discrepancy between aerials, airports and aerials constantly changing, the lack of contrast or resolution often present in the sim, and several other QoL issues that pop up (such as how far apron coverage should extend, what really constitutes a need for coverage on the airport) there has to be some latitude given. To be fair, I think there has been as this has evolved.

But my point is, given these issues, it’s almost unnecessary to get down to the gnat’s behind of detail/accuracy in the world hub, if it’s even possible in the first place. There’s simply too much (uncompensated) work to be done. The problem is I don’t like sacrificing detail, so I tend to overdo it and spend way too much time (correcting taxiway signs, for instance). But I’ve come to learn there are sacrifices that have to be made in the interest of simply improving it, making it realistic enough and moving on to the next project.

I will say this:

I am upset that all representation from Asobo seems to have disappeared from the WorldHub category.

They used to be very responsive, and over time, that support has evaporated. I have two World Hub submissions that are held up because of issues. One was rejected because I tried to make the airport realistic and I have received no official feedback on how to fix it.

I have a topic about open topics that haven’t been answered. That topic has done nothing to get some of those questions answered.

We also still don’t know what the November refresh is going to do. I had a conversation with Jörg about this issue, but there is some stuff I don’t want to say on here about a follow-up that give me pause. I don’t trust that everything is fine for November.

When this started, I felt like this was much more of a collaboration. Now I feel like we have been abandoned. What possible reason would I have to continue working on this?

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I hear you. This is exactly what I’m fearing too.
But can you tell me “the stuff you don’t want to say here” in private message? Please. Because I’m still working hard and to know that I’m going to be trashed makes me really nervous. Thank you!

Yeah, I’m getting that feeling too. After FSExpo even moderators stopped making their airpots… It’s strange and it’s scares me.

Asobo, Hello? Anyone? Just don’t waste our time please! If this is the end, so tell us about it, we’re not little kids that will cry and weep about it. But if you’ll make suddenly then it’ll make the rage in the community, I’m sure…

Hi, guys,

As you may have noticed, I’m the only one from Asobo/MS to contribute here on the World Hub, and lately I’ve been spending less time replying to various topics, mainly due to the development of Flight Simulator 2024 (which, as you may imagine, takes up a lot of space in your schedule XD). So first of all, I’d like to apologize for not dropping by more often than I’d like.

So I’m here to answer a few questions (and for some others, I’ll have to shut up ^^)

1 - We needed the moderation team for an emergency on our side, which is why you don’t see them intervening much on the World Hub.
2 - We have indeed updated the AIRAC as well as the World Hub airports that correspond to the same period, but don’t panic, we’re just a little late in communicating this update.
3 - As for the future of your work, I’d like to make it clear that we’re not going to cut anything, so don’t worry.
4 - Unfortunately, I’m not in a position to say more about November. I can only advise you to wait for official information.

Overall: The World Hub is a project close to our hearts, with only a small Flight Simulator 2024 project taking up some of our time. :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

Cheers buddies

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Much apreciate your answer!
Thank you! :pray: :slightly_smiling_face:

Hello Nicolas,

Thank you for your response. While I appreciate that MSFS 2024 is under development, when nobody shows up here for weeks, these are the two takeaways I am getting:

  1. The World Hub is not a very high priority for the team.
  2. We are not very important to the team, either.

The World Hub has been a huge priority for me. I have put in hundreds of hours into the World Hub, often fixing things I never should have needed fixing if they were done right, like taxiways and runways not being aligned on their aerials. I haven’t flown for fun once in the sim since the World Hub came out.

So it really stings when I can’t get any support telling me how to fix my submission that was rejected because I did things that are true to life. That and one other airport are blocked right now for the same reasons, and they represent weeks of work.

What assurance do I have that my next airport is not going to get rejected for some other undocumented rules? And what assurances do I have that anyone would even help me if nobody is helping me now? I’m not the only one. There are several rejection posts that I identified that nobody responded to, either.

Speaking of undocumented rules, Martial said that the criteria upon which World Hub airports would be evaluated would be published:

He said that in March. It is now the middle of July.

Regarding this:

I’m sorry, but it’s more complicated than that. Will an airport that was shifted off its aerial be shifted back after someone fixed it? How many meters off does an aerial have to be for the system to believe that a “fixed” airport is wrong? Is it worth fixing an airport that was shifted? I did ¾ of a major international airport, but I left off ¼ of the airport. Will the other ¼ be fixed? Or would the system not touch it because the airport was edited? If you add in some details that the system didn’t find, would it remove them?

I want this to work. But right now, my confidence level is not high enough.

Hey, haven’t had time to catch the dev stream yesterday, but it sounds like the World Hub is on hold until 2024 is released?

Can we confirm?

And I have a few airports about ready to submit - is it worth finishing and submitting or should I hold on to them? If it’s the former, is there a deadline?

Lastly, any movement on updates and enhancements to the World Hub SDK and airport objects that we’ve been recommending?

Confirmed. Closure as early as Monday next week. Not to be reopened until sometime next year, possibly Q2. Submit as quickly as you can.

No idea on the SDK stuff.

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:pensive:

I want to make it very clear that I enjoy editing,
but there are some SDK QoL fixes needed for the sake of the workflow efficiency as well as general enhancement of objects to match those found in the real-world.

My issue with the World Hub is there are a handful of us diligently putting a lot of effort into being what basically amounts to being a QA checker and editor for the AI. That’s fine; but the work and improvement has been happening relatively silently, which means users haven’t been shown the benefit of the World Hub, a comparison of before and after to say “this is why it’s necessary.” And without that knowledge or any other feedback proving otherwise, end-users won’t be invested in supporting the endeavor, and the AI will continue to produce shoddy work and our (uncompensated and sometimes aggravating) workload will continue, even so much as requiring re-work when aerials are updated.

I think the World Hub is a great idea, but there’s just not much in the way of acknowledgement, understanding, and marketing about why it’s so necessary. Instead it seems like it’s a bother, as if our concerns as a core team of people who are not only invested and dedicated in enhancing the sim, but actually have real-world experience and even subject-matter expertise, are unfounded and a nuisance. This is evidenced by the relative lack of communication and now the sudden postponement of the program without much rationale as to why.

I’d hate to see the sim continue to put out tens of thousands of airports that don’t match reality and/or become disjointed from reality when a photo changes or a real-world airport undergoes changes. That is detrimental to a real-world experience in many ways, from lack of fidelity, to erosion of immersion, to fully breaking playability.